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Rogue Heroes
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series • drama
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Stream free On Demand
Archie Roach - Song Man
3371 OD Embed Podcast Episode
Credit: Courtesy Senator Andrew Cardozo
Abstract
Transcript
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This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal of the Eora nation. I like to pay my respects to elders past and present and recognise their continuous connection to country.
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The bigger the fish, the more likely it's got higher levels of mercury in it.
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I actually couldn't work out the sustainability of anything, and so I took finfish off the menu completely for two years.
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So Nish is a raw fish dish, that's like a household meal through Murray and Torres Strait families. It's something that I really wanted to, to share and pay homage to.
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Our taste for seafood goes back a long time. We've been snacking on shellfish for more than 100,000 years, but today, people might reconsider the catch of the day and what's netted from coastlines because of environmental, ethical, or health concerns.
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I'm Letra Lamb, and you're listening to Should You Really Eat That. This show explores the cultural, social, and nutritional confusion over the staples in our diet. Should you be consuming more tea, less coffee? Should you skip the rice, bread, seafood, or cheese? It can be bewildering, keeping up.
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Of what's quote unquote good for you. And so many different beliefs shape what we consume, what's fact and what's fashion, and whose perspective is being overlooked. Untangling all of this can be tricky, which is why I started this podcast. Today's episode is on seafood.
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From Brazilian moeca to Vietnamese ganja, seafood flavours the dishes on many tables worldwide. Lunar New Year banquets feature whole steamed fish for good luck, and high rollers splash out on caviar because they can. But the status of seafood is ever-changing. Caviar used to be peasant food, and American saloons gave the dish.
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Away like literal peanuts. Today, the fish eggs are so pricey that the Guinness World Record for the most expensive caviar is for an Iranian variety that costs $38,000 Australian dollars a kilo. Attitudes to seafood have changed too. We might skip bluefin tuna or Tasmanian farmed salmon for sustainability reasons. And if you
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vegan, vegetarian, or pregnant, you're likely limiting consumption of what's hauled from the sea as well. So seafood, how much should we actually be eating? Let's talk to an expert who can help us out. I'm
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Dr. Evangeline Mantsouris, currently the programme director of nutrition and food sciences here at the University of South Australia. I'm also an accredited practising dietician. I've had almost over 30 years in the area of nutrition.
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Seafood, including fish and all the other sorts of shore fish and food that comes from the sea, I guess including seaweed is really important for our nutritional intake. And one of those aspects that is really important is the omega 3 fatty acid. Having more omega-3 fats in our diet is healthier for us and reduces the risk of a lot of chronic diseases. So what does this all mean for our diet? It means we should try to get in a couple of serves of fish a week.
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I know you need to exercise caution with seafood when pregnant, as illustrated by pregnant friends enthusiastically requesting sushi and sashimi as their number one post birth celebration meal. The reason why they're careful to avoid raw seafood when they're expecting is to minimise the risk of a Listeria infection, which can lead to miscarriage or other serious complications.
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When women get pregnant, there's this sudden reduction of the intake of seafood. And this is a little bit concerning because the advantages of eating seafood outweigh the risks.
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Listeria, as mentioned, is one of those risks. Another is mercury. The first time I'd ever heard of someone inadvertently ingesting an alarming amount of mercury was when actor Jeremy Piven had to quit.
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David Mamet play in New York because he'd tested for 6 times the normal levels of mercury, which the actor partly blamed on his fish-heavy diet. When David Mamet was asked for his response to Jeremy Piven exiting his production due to excessive mercury levels, the playwright said, My understanding is that he's leaving show business to pursue a career as a thermometer.
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Now David Mamet is famous for his entertaining quips and punch lines, but for pregnant women, mercury consumption is a serious issue.
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Now, mercury is a concern because it can affect the neural system and cause neural development problems. The bigger the fish, the more likely it's got higher levels of mercury in it. Women who are pregnant are actually encouraged to keep consuming fish because it's a really valuable source of omega 3 for them and their baby, particularly because that's what is used to form our brains. So the recommendation is to have 2.
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Serves of fish, preferably choosing smaller fish. The fish you need to avoid uh orange roughy or deep sea perch or catfish. If you do eat them, 150 grammes serve, which is about the size of someone's hand, only having it once a week and having no other fish in that week. The other fish that needs to be avoided, and you can see these are all the bigger fish that are gonna eat lots and lots of little fish, is shark, which is all
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Also served as flake, which is what typically fish and chips are from a fish and chips store. And if you have a serve of that, once again, we call a serve 150 grammes, the size of my hand, you can only have it once a fortnight. But if you avoid those fish, you can have fish twice a week. Two serves of fish or seafood a week is what's needed, particularly for pregnant women. In South Australia, they're actually screening.
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In women's omega 3 levels because they've shown that lower omega 3 levels during pregnancy increases the risk of a premature birth.
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So what if you don't eat fish for ethical or environmental
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reasons? So seaweed has got a valuable source of the omega 3 fatty acids in it. It will be a valuable source for women who may be vegan or vegetarian.
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You might have heard about how great seaweed is. It's been touted as a good weapon against climate change because it absorbs carbon, reduces methane emissions, and can produce bioplastics. Sea creatures also adorably turn kelp into sun protective hats for their heads. Seaweeds also meant to be good for thyroid function, gut health, your immune system, and heart health. However, I was shocked.
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When I learned that hijiki, a type of seaweed found in furakake seasoning and other Japanese staples, contains a concerning amount of arsenic. I've encountered this seaweed in many dishes in Japan, and Tokyo-born cookbook author Makiko Ito writes on her Just Hungry blog that tests done on hijiki are on the dried variety, and you normally soak, rinse, strain, and cook the seaweed in liquid, which are
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Apparently reduces the ingredients arsenic levels. In 2004, when Food Standards Australia considered banning Hijiki, chef Tetsuya Wakuda told the Sydney Morning Herald, in Japan, they are still eating it every day. If it is that dangerous, why are they using it in baby food? The ingredients beloved in Japan. But food safety bodies around the world, including in Singapore and Hong Kong, have issued warnings about this sea.
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Food Standards Australia considers it a risk food and monitors arsenic levels in imported hijiki. By the way, other seaweed varieties like the nori that sushi is wrapped in, do not share Hijiki's high arsenic levels. Now, we've mentioned how seaweed and seafood are good sources of omega 3 fatty acids. They're vital not just for physical health, but mental well-being too.
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So it also lowers the risk of depression, and in older populations of people, it seems to improve the cognitive decline that we see. So really important once again to look at the intake of fish for those populations. The fish is incredibly important in our diet for the health benefits that we get from it, but for island populations and small communities that rely.
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I know it can sometimes be their sole source of protein, and it actually supplies protein to about 17% of the population around the world. And what's concerning is with the global climate change ocean temperatures are going up, and there's concern in the scientific world about how this may affect the growth, the reproductive ability of the fish, and also the nutrients that they contain.
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So will fish that are in a warmer temperature, will they have as much protein? It may affect their ability to metabolise and produce these fatty acids. Climate change is another topic, but I think the big overall thing is that when we eat fish, to not waste it, because then that further contributes to the climate change problems we're having with greenhouse gases that are emitted from food waste.
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With seafood, it's vital to talk about sustainability. Let's chat to someone who strongly cares about this topic.
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My name is Ben Shuy, I'm the chef and owner of Attica Restaurant in Melbourne.
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I grew up on the west coast of the North Island of New Zealand in a region called Taranaki. Seafood was always such a massive part of our life because growing up we didn't have a lot, and we lived out on the coast, and that was access to food regularly and our family had rituals around the harvesting of what we call kina or sea urchin.
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or abalone, kura or crayfish, those are Te Reo Maori words for different types of seafood that we ate as children with our parents on the beach a short drive from our home, we would have a feast, and we felt like kings. My mum and dad were really good at like hiding the lack of money from us, but it's funny because those things were free and now they're some of the most
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valuable ingredients in the world.
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So what was his first professional encounter with seafood like?
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Well, probably my first encounter with seafood as a chef was not a particularly good one. We have the famous green lip mussel in New Zealand, and it would have probably been green lip mussels frozen on the half shell coming out of a box in a plastic bag.
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being laid onto a bainie tray, perhaps topped with bacon and Mornay sauce and grilled, and then put on a buffet. Actually, no, no. My very first professional experience with seafood was it was a fisherman's basket when I was 10 years old and I was doing work experience in a in a place called The Mill, which was the restaurant of the town, New Plymouth, where I sort of spent my
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childhood.
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When did you become aware of why sustainability in seafood mattered so much?
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It was something that I was aware of from my childhood. My father had this view of only taking enough for you to eat and not taking more than that. If you're allowed 10 a day, which I think was the number when I was a child, but we only needed 4 to feed us, then that's what dad would take. It probably wasn't until I was in my early twenties that sustainability started to become a bigger factor because
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I began to learn that the more sustainable ingredients are, the better quality they are generally, and then when I had my first child, Kobe at 27, I really started to examine what I was doing as a chef in my impacts and started to see that the supply of certain things from the ocean was drying up as well. They were harder to get certain types of fish species were becoming less abundantly available through the market or through our seafood purveyor, and it just led me.
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this kind of rabbit hole of
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research. Seafood sustainability matters deeply, as many people rely on this protein to feed themselves and maintain their livelihoods. But in just 50 years, we've seen the number of overfished stocks triple internationally, and the Food and Agriculture organisation of the United Nations states that a third of the world's assessed fisheries are currently pushed to be.
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Beyond their biological limits, bluefin tuna is famously under threat. In the third plate, Chef Dan Barber writes about the shame he felt after offering it to diners. If we continued plundering the ocean for bluefin tuna, there'd be nothing left within a generation. I knew all of that, or at least enough to know better, and yet I had gone ahead and served it in my kitchen. It still happens today.
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In a review of a Melbourne sushi temple, the ages critic Besha Adel expressed disappointment the restaurant relied so heavily on fish that's endangered, although it's hardly alone in this. In January 2019, restaurateur Kiyoshi Kimura paid a record breaking $4.4 million for one bluefin tuna at the.
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Tokyo Fish Market. It's a sign of how in demand this endangered species is. Only decades ago, bluefin tuna was seen as inferior, considered only good enough for pet food. In the LA Times recently, Jean Tren wrote, There are 3 species of bluefin tuna, Atlantic, Pacific, and Southern, and they've all been historically overfished. In 2010, the
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of adult Pacific bluefin tuna dropped to as low as 1.5% of pre-fishing levels before rising to 10% in 2020. So 10% is much better than 1.5%, but we're still not out of the woods. In 2021, southern bluefin tuna, the kind found in Australia, was reclassified on the International Union for Conservation.
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Of nature's red list of threatened species. It was no longer considered critically endangered. It's now just plain endangered. For some, this relative rise in bluefin tuna stocks means the fish is acceptable to consume, while others reckon it must be avoided altogether. Now, if you've ever been confused about which species are OK to eat and what's off limits, well, you're not the only one.
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This is probably a decade ago or longer when I actually couldn't work out the sustainability of anything. And so I took finfish off the menu completely for two years, which for a chef in, you know, in an ambitious restaurant is a really difficult thing. So I decided that I would work with things that I absolutely knew were sustainable, like mussels and oysters, until I could kind of reconcile what was up.
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Nowadays, Ben has a better idea of what's ethical to serve, especially since he's an ambassador for the Good Fish Project.
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So the Good Fish Project is the Australian Marine Conservation Society's guide to sustainable seafood in Australia, which you can visit by going to goodfish.org.au. Good fish breaks down sustainability in seafood into three very simple colours traffic light system, red being say no, so things that you should most definitely need.
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for a variety of reasons outlined in the guide yellow or orange, which is eat less and better choice, which is green. It's the only independent seafood guide in Australia. It's not backed by government or by big industry or it doesn't have any vested interests other than care for the planet. That's what I love about it. It's science-based and the vast amount of time and energy is put into this guide and these decisions.
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In the guide are not made lightly. So this is just an incredible tool for Australians who eat seafood.
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Has it inspired what's at his restaurant?
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Absolutely. It's had a huge influence on me. For a start, Attica has pledged to only serve seafood from the green list in the guide, and it's very important to us. We've gone actually beyond that even to even research every product on our menu that contains seafood, things like fish sauce.
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I know for a lot of people who discovered this guy, it's really helpful because you could be at the fish and chip shop and you're not sure, you know, what you should eat, and I really do believe in the goodness of humans and we don't want to hurt the environment, but a lot of what we do is just through not knowing, you know, it's as easy as pulling your phone out at the fish and chip shop and looking at the species of fish that are available and seeing if any of them are in the green list and whether or not you can actually ethically eat them. And if I can't, I'll have a hamburger.
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Remember how Doctor Evangeline flagged flake as something to avoid, because it's shark, a predator fish likely to contain higher levels of mercury than smaller species. Here's another reason for saying no to
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flake. Because of Australia's poor labelling laws, and when you order flake in a fish chip shop, you could be eating one of different endangered types of sharks, and I just can't believe that any Australian.
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would want to eat flake if they knew that, but there are alternatives here in Victoria. King George Whiting, particularly from the corner Inlet fishery, is a wonderful choice. It is, in my mind the most delicious Australian fish. It is completely sustainable and it's harvested using amazing methods by some of the most environmentally minded fisher people that you'll ever meet, and they represent the best and the future of fishing and I'm
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Saying that people shouldn't eat fish, but all issues of climate change, environment, sustainability, they all stem from a reduction in the use of things, whether that be a reduction in the eating of certain species of fish which are under pressure and in some cases a complete and total reduction so that we actually don't eat them until that precious resource can recover.
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Seafood eaters should consider mussels which, like oysters have been.
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Ecological Superheroes by the University of Adelaide. These shellfish are philtre feeders, so they help clean the environment and have been named the kidneys of waterways because of this.
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Mussels are a wonderful example of a shellfish that I always point to for people wanting an affordable, delicious source of seafood. Here in Victoria, we're really fortunate because we have several mussel farms in Port Phillip Bay, so really close to
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City. The practise is exemplary. There are little to no negative impacts on the environment. Mussels are filled to feeders, they are good for the bay. They are also native to the bay, the blue mussel, so they are supposed to be there, and that's actually a really important consideration with a lot of aquaculture and farmed fish, sometimes those species are from a different part of the world and aren't actually supposed to be in that environment, and that in turn puts a lot of pressure on the environment.
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Like the farming of Atlantic salmon in Tasmania, says Ben, Richard Flanagan's powerful writing has put this environmentally devastating practise in the spotlight. A Tasmanian Atlantic salmon is the battery hen of the sea. The acclaimed author writes in toxic, the rotting underbelly of the Tasmanian salmon industry. The Good Fish Guide has also highlighted concerns about ulu.
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Ocean levels and other negative environmental impacts from farming salmon in Tasmania. Particularly
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Macquarie harbour, where there's a critically endangered skate, one of the world's rarest, and there's several impacts on that skate, but effectively salmon farming is one of them. In effect, what I'm saying is that salmon don't belong in that environment.
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Mussels are a sustainable alternative, and you can get a lot out of them, says Ben. Here he
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shares an easy way to maximise a whole of
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muscles. One of the ways that I like to cook mussels is by heating up a large saucepan until it's quite hot, nothing in it, popping the mussels into the pot, maybe with a 1/2 cup of water or the classic is white wine, putting a lid on, steaming them until they're just open, and then I like to pick the mussels out of the shells and you can use them in a salad, and a risotto, and a pasta to have them just.
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A bowlful, but all of the juice that's in the bottom of that saucepan, I like to use that to make a soup from. So you can add things like leeks, onions, and potatoes, celery, carrots, and you can make a really delicious, like a light chowder kind of by sweating the onions and garlic off and then adding the mussel juice to it, and that's like a delicious, delicious stock and far better than any cubes that you might buy, that's for sure. And then, um,
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You've got kind of a 2 for 1 deal with those muscles. The first course, the steamed mussels, and then you've got a second course of the soup. And I also add those shelves to my compost as well. They would take very long time to break down, no, no doubt, but, um, but that there's sort of like no wastage there.
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So that's a handy no waste recipe from one of Australia's most internationally recognised chefs. Attica has, after all, been named Restaurant of the Year by multiple.
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Food titles from gourmet traveller to the Good Food Guide, and its first appearance in the world's 50 best restaurants longlist led to a 9 month long queue for reservations. Mussels are no stranger to Attica's menu. You might recall Ben's episode on Netflix's first season of Chef's Table, which features a striking dish dedicated to Lance Whin, his mussel supplier.
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Lance Win, he's been farming mussels for over 30 years in Port Phillip Bay. He's an absolute legend. We loved him so much and loved his muscles. They were the best we've ever had, but we had an artist paint his face on mussel shell, on a half shell, and we would serve this muscle, painted mussel shell, this portrait of Lance within him alongside this dish, which is effectively a fried mussel.
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In honour of him and the commitment to environment and to his community that he makes, he's a real unsung hero.
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So what happened to all those decorated mussel shells?
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They're in a storage locker somewhere or maybe even in my garage. I saw them the other day, funnily enough, actually they might end up at the powerhouse. They've asked us to.
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Things from Attica over the years that maybe we no longer need that might be valuable to some sort of future generation that's interested in what we did, you know, when we don't do this
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anymore. It's an inspired example of using seafood to tell a story about sustainability. Let's talk to another chef who addresses climate change via his cooking.
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Hi, my name's Chris Jordan. I'm a First Nation chef. I run Three Little Birds, an indigenous catering company. We work in Me Brisbane, down in Yugamberg Country on the Gold Coast, and gabbyguy country on the Sunshine Coast. And we've also collaborated with Catbird at Fairhill Native Botanic Gardens. Some of my earliest memories stem from stories of my dad. So my dad passed away when I was 2. He was
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Really good fisherman. He would do the mullet run and he'd go down and get oysters off the rocks and eat them. So we were living on Kuumuu country and his ashes were actually spread around Peel Island. So I'd spend afternoons down at the beach with my auntie eating fish and chips, and they're the kind of first memories of seafood, sharing with my aunties hearing stories about my dad and learning who he was.
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Chris has strong memories of prepping seafood at one of his earliest jobs at Sydney's Flying Fish Restaurant with chef Peter Kuruvita.
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Um, I'm actually allergic to iodine, which is in shellfish shells. My first job as an apprentice with PETA at Flying Fish, it was peeling prawns for the prawn curry. I knew I was allergic to prawns, but I was just like so eager to like impress, and I just moved to Sydney from the country. I just wanted to do a good job.
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So I would like triple glove my hands and start peeling these prawns. And obviously they'd spike me through these little plastic gloves and I'd get like this reaction under the gloves, but I would just keep going and like doing it every day.
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Chris notes he was allergic to iodine, not the shellfish itself. Of course, it's worth taking care with any food you could have an extremely adverse reaction to.
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When did Chris realise it was important to serve sustainable
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seafood? I've been sober for over 4 years now. During that process, there's a lot of reflection, so like looking at my core values. So I've been vegetarian for 6 years now, and I only eat seafood that I catch myself. I will like taste things and events and stuff, but I think it's really important to consider the life that we take when we eat meat.
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And seafood and its impact and role within an ecosystem. And what's really helped me stay sober is being on country with Auntie Dale Chapman, Auntie Arabella Douglas, and Brother Kieran Anderson, and gathering food and seeing how we interact with the environment as we nourish ourselves and then also nourish country by only taking what we need. It's, it's a part of who I am. I want to express that through, you know, the food and the work that I do.
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Chris has used seafood to comment on climate change, with dishes named oil and gas and bleached coral, for instance, at events at Brisbane's Gallery of Modern
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Art. So they were oil and gas, which was a squid ink, xantham batter with a nice myrtle, mountain pepper and bottle seed oil, and it was a pandanus vinegar that I'd made with vinegar powder and sea water. So this was like a
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Monochromatic black. And then the course that followed it was bleached coral. So it was refish, a smoked roe haramaa lada, and then we'd made the bones into a stock, which went into a tapioca crisp, and some local pickles and crystal bread. So using every part of the fish and really honouring its life, and this was monochromatic white. These were to signify the destruction of the reef and coral bleaching, oil and gas projects that threatened our marine biology.
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He's cooked deadly feasts with fellow First Nations chef Kieran Anderson, where they've served oysters with winter aspen and charred prawns with crocodile fat. And he is aware of how seafood can play a social, cultural, and environmental role in indigenous communities.
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So I think the role that it plays, and when I've experienced it firsthand, is connecting to country. In this menu, we started off with this dish that I created for Annie Roseilu, and it was a namas with smoked young coconut, curry myrtle sorbet, and we did this Kakadu plum, sourdough with barbed wire grass and lemon myrtle and dessert lime. So it was inspired by listening to Annie Rose Eu speak about the rising seas and the los.
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Some country throughout the Torres Strait. She spoke about the germination of the coconut and how it mirrors the umbilical cord and roots her to country. I think the social and cultural role that it plays is something that's beyond me explaining, but the way that I interpreted her story and how much it, it means to mob is my way of honouring that connection.
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Son is a raw fish dish, that's like a household meal through Murray and Torres Strait families. It's something that I really wanted to, to share and pay homage to, and especially that story of, you know, the roots of the tree connecting her deeply into that island. Especially like as the Torres Strait Islanders, they're on the front lines of this climate crisis, and, you know, it's threatening homes, damaging fresh water, crops, burial grounds.
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And sacred cultural science. So I think the way that we eat and the way that we look at how our eating affects the whole system, I, I truly think that the only way that we can combat this climate change is to sit and listen to First Nations people and their knowledge and
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experience. As traditional custodians of the land, indigenous Australians have ensured the sustainability of this continent.
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For over 65,000 years. There are many examples of this, like the World Heritage listed bubin eel traps in Victoria that are over 6000 years old and enabled the Gunditjmara people to ingeniously and sustainably fish eel all year round. All the middens First Nations people adorned with shellfish, so they could note which species they'd consumed and not overeat them.
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Around the world, yeah, we're definitely at this tipping point, and I think it's First Nations people who need to be called upon to guide policy and action.
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Chris also uses seafood to shape the future by teaching cooking lessons at a juvenile detention centre.
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What inspired me to start working with young indigenous and disadvantaged youth, you know, leaving home at 15, we didn't really have much food. Sometimes we'd go fishing and catch something for us to eat. But then also, losing my dad, you know, then eating fish became a real treat for the family. There's a lot of young kids out there who, you know, might not.
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Have access, you know, seafood really isn't that cheap. Um, the way I started working with incarcerated youth is with Karaullo. She's a chef and a teacher. She started a catering business, actually in a school in Redbank. I walked into this classroom, and it was a running catering business. The kids' curriculum was
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filling orders, so they would make things that needed to set ahead of time and things would be boxed up or things would be taken out and served. And I just saw for the first time in a school, a working catering business that actually exposed kids to what the industry is like. It was beautiful, and she's been working in juvie for about 4 or 5 years.
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It's
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now been a few years since Chris started teaching kids at Brisbane Youth Education and Training centre located at Brisbane Youth Detention centre.
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I've taught kids as young as 12 in there. Well, I definitely see myself in these young kids, and I got caught up in some bad and terrible things. There is, you know, hope to turn your life around and
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And I was going to teach the kids how to make namas, this dish that I was talking about before about Annie Rose Eu. And the kids were like, Oh, so what, what catering event is this for? Like, who's gonna get to eat this? And I remember saying to them, I was like, I, this is for you guys. Like, I just brought this in for you guys. It was just a really special moment. So I showed them how to fill it it, and then we cut it up. So
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Some of the kids were like, Oh, like raw fish, we're a bit put off by it, but when they tasted it, they're like, Oh, wow, this is really good. I just remember, like, them shaking my hands and saying thank you at the end. A lot of these kids haven't been told that they're doing a good job. A little bit of kindness and love and respect, you know, goes a long way. And if you treat these kids in a loving, caring way, it, it comes straight back to you.
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You've just heard the final episode of this season of Should you really Eat That? You can catch up on the previous episodes, which cover rice, bread, tea, coffee, and cheese on your favourite podcast app, and feel free to spread the word and tell people about the show.
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Should you really Eat That is an SBS podcast. It's written and presented by me, Lee Tran Lam. Thank you to the SBS audio team, Max Gosford, Joel Supple, and Caroline Gates for their contributions and guidance. The brilliant artwork is by Grace Lee, and the theme song is Sydney Sunset by Euan artist Nooky. The email address for the show is audio@sbs.com.au.
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